Got a reply-what they said, what I said.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

To the mods, please disregard my previous post.  I forgot to remove the personal info.


Their reply:

Did you even read the rating system within the guideline?  If not, please do so.

M rated:  Not suitable for children or teens below the age of 16 with possible strong but non-explicit adult themes, references to violence, and strong coarse language.

MA rated:  Content is only suitable for mature adults. May contain explicit language and adult themes.

So in answer to your question, a tastefully written love scene that implies but not explicitly describe the sexual act will be fine with an M rating.  There are plenty of good examples on the site.  There is no denying that there are people who enjoy MA rated stories and are loyal readers/writers.  But they are not our targeted users.  Thus MA rated stories are not allowed.  

One of the goal of this site to help people to become better writers.  A properly written story will present a very enjoyable read and truly "unleash the imagination".

Zack

My reply:

Of course I've read the guidelines.  And I still say your descriptions are vague.  Who exactly decides what is appropriate for a certain age?  To say my fic is only appropriate for adults is offensive, especially since it was actually co-written with me by a sixteen-year-old, and the reviewers include those both younger and older.  The M rating has NEVER been for stories that just imply the more adult stuff.  It's always been for stories that are a bit racy, but not extreme.  That's why it's the M rating, and that is why it is hidden.  If it were just for "implied" stuff, then it wouldn't need to be hidden.  My story was perfectly tame and certainly not MA.  There is no other place out there for it.  It would never be suited to an extreme site like AdultFanfiction.Net, and I would never post it there, especially as most of my readers are too young for that site or are uncomfortable with it. 

Your reply is kind of offensive, as you imply my story is not tasetful or properly-written.  Did you even read it?  It didn't get all those reviews for not being tasteful and properly-written. 

And you say that your goal is to help people become better writers and unleash their imagination.  But that makes no sense.  Why should that then not include more mature stories, like the kind that are too tame for sites like AdultFanfiction, which largely features extremely dark and disturbing stories that involve subject matter many are uncomfortable with.  This story was me stepping out of my comfort zone and trying something new and more mature.  Seems what you are doing is actually against your goal of making people better writers and helping them unleash your imagination.  The more you tighten your guidelines, the more you restrict our imaginations and abilities.  As it was, we could not write scripts-the perfect beginning for those not yet ready for descriptive storytelling,-songfics, or interactive stories.  And now you are trying to do this?  Are you aware this recent purge has a LOT of people planning to just ditch the site and move over to Archive of Our Own?  And we're talking members like me who have been around for ages.  You are doing wrong by us, and that alone should tell you that you need to reconsider.

Even museums have sections for art that features things like nudity, you know.

I want to become a better writer and unleash my imagination, as well as help others do the same.  But your site is currently hampering that by the removal of this story.  And I'm sure the many other people emailing you would agree.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not trolling. I'm very serious with this message.

I think you might need to let it go and just find a new host. I don't know how descriptive/graphic your story was, but if it was M, seems like their argument will be rating. I'm honestly sorry you lost your story, but they're right with their ratings, and if you thought they were ambiguous, that's not really their problem. http://www.fictionratings.com/ What he copied and pasted on that e-mail is exactly what they've always had on that site. Not knowing the law doesn't impugn people in the real world from the crime, right? Not knowing ratings, not understanding how these things work, or what it properly means to imply and write a graphic scene are things that come with experience. This is probably the experience.

Your argument of who decides what is appropriate for what age doesn't work in context -- that's like asking to just not have a rating system. Obviously the people that own the archive servers get to decide what's appropriate. And yes, many people might leave to AO3, but a lot of people will stay with FF.net. Relatively speaking, the loss in traffic (considering AO3 is still invitation only) will probably not be enough until a while still for them to see how they fucked this up. If anything, AO3 will become more saturated and already it's having problems with people not being able to access it sometimes because of more people coming into the site. Not to mention some of the quality will probably decrease...

I see a lot of people complain, but I think at this point the tone of your e-mail isn't helping, and he really isn't trying to be offensive to you. He's probably frustrated because, hell, I lost a story, too, but I see how their argument is legitimate -- legally legitimate. It would probably work better if you asked for clearer/longer rating descriptions, though I'm sure whoever is in charge of their accessibility department understands the longer it is, the less people that will read things, hence all these rule violations. AF.also doesn't feature just dark or disturbing stories. Some of the scenes very much resemble what you'll find on FF.net. The only difference is many of these people recognized their material as MA. Not to mention that some fandoms on FF.net feature non-con and dark themes, including power-play with sex scenes involved. Your dark and disturbing argument is a bit offensive, actually, because if your argument is 'who decides what's graphic or not?' then your argument of what's disturbing or not is now coming off as kink-shaming. Just saying.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

If you're who I suspect, then you probably are trolling.

I should not let this go. None of us should. It's an outrage.

Their ratings are ambiguous, and yes, it is their problem. They don't explain the ratings, then they go around purging massive amounts of stories, claiming they are rated wrong. And as others have pointed out, far more offensive stories are still up.

And as others have pointed out, their email reply to me was condescending and rude, insulting both me and my story. My reply was civil, but firm. And it was well-justified.

[evalentine99.livejournal.com]

With all due resepct to your argument. The M rating is 16 plus its vauge. I have struggled with it since i started posting there. Do they mean over all or is a sex scene within the entire fic. PWP I agree is out of place. Do they mean kinks, blood play or do them mean all sex scenes. Does this mean loving consencial sex between adults as part of a love story? If so why is that considered explicity when we see soft porn in a majority of TV's shows and film. Do they mean erotic like most romance novels.

What do they mean by violence its is graphic violence? The violence in Harry potter is pretty extreme can we go that far? Do we use what we see on TV and films and what that is rated as as a guide.

All very conflicting. They need to give some examples becuase even as a mature fanfic writer their ratings are not clear.

It is ironic that so many stories are being removed when a copy of the most offensive fanfic story of all time is still on their site even afer repeated request for it to be removed.

[evalentine99.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Harry Potter in terms of violence I would argue under the ff.net rating should be an M or even MA. It has torture, cruelty, betrayal. Look at the idea of the three unforgiveable curses. Buckbeak was going to be-head the creature. Some of the imagery is nightmarish to say the least. The soul eaters fore example.

As an adult with a good understanding of the TV and film rating system I read the rating for M and thought that it covered everything except for some of the way out kinks hard core stuff like B&D,blood play, scrat, and stuff and aimed at what I would expect to find in a romance novel.

I see two issues here.
I'll defined catagory - with no spercific examples of what they mean by M. It says 16 plus.
16 is the age of consent. I read it very carefully before posting and its clear from the comments I've read their understanding is different. Due the large number of cultures who write fanfiction they need to be far more clear.

Indicrimiatory deletions being inconsisently applied. There is a story on ffnet which is stolen and considered the most offensive ff story of all time and even after repeated requests is still showing. (I checked hoping it was gone. Its not sigh) This goes to a great deal of plargised stories that are reported they are never removed. So they need to clean up their act big time.

If they want to purge their site then they need to do so and then keep doing so.

Don't leave it 10 years let anyone post what they like then start deleting.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

You should really email them and tell them that.

[hazliya.livejournal.com]

" Who exactly decides what is appropriate for a certain age?"

In this case, the FFnet admin.

I hate to be That Guy, but the fact of the matter is that when it's on their site, they have the final say. And while I agree that the limit descriptions are vague and could definitely be nailed down more, the people who enforce them are the ones whose judgment matters.

And, if their record is any indication, there is nothing you can do about it. By this I mean that they really don't have the best history of implementing really positive changes, and this seems equally unlikely.

It sounds more and more like AO3 is your solution. Yes, you'll take a massive reader hit, but update a story and inform your readers of your move in the author's note/chapter preface. They might agree and come with, who knows? Besides, there are a lot of us who crosspost and are happy to help walk you through the signup and editing and whatnot over there.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

Well, they didn't tell us what they decided when they posted those vague ratings, and I can still recall a time when the ratings said specifically that you should have racy stuff, just not the actual act described in detail. And their own words about what the aim of their site is contradicts the stuff they say about what they allow. We have to keep fighting.

I'd prefer not to use Archive of Our Own actively. I don't care much for change, usually. And a massive reader hit is a big deal. It's hard enough getting reviews.

[hazliya.livejournal.com]

I know how hard it is to get readers and reviews, even for people already established in the fandom. And I empathize. Heck, my stories might be in danger for swears or gore.

But the sad, hard truth is that they can (and have proven they will) delete stories without warning. You can continue to fight the good fight, but your stories are still at risk.

Maybe you could consider crossposting? I do, and it takes all of an extra 30 seconds for me to update both. I'm not a gung-ho advocate for AO3 (the aforementioned lack of traffic is a huge drawback for me), but at least it's a secure copy of your work.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

Currently, I'm more focused on trying to get my story back up on that site. I can't just give up, and no one else should either.

[evalentine99.livejournal.com]

As frustrating as it is, there are multiple other sites you can post. The mods are like the three monkeys, Blind deaf and don't respond and if they do they don't back down if they feel they have a case.

It s a great idea to repost yoru work on other sites.

Firstly you may get more readers, and reviews than on ff.net.

The joy of using ffnet its so easy to post and review. However its just one of many sites for fanfiction.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

It seems like Archive doesn't get a lot of comments, though. And it's overall got a lot less people. And I'm finding it really hard to get use to how they alphabetize the fandoms.

[evalentine99.livejournal.com]

It will feel odd as you are so used to ff net.

Be aware there are also fandom sites as well. So there may be lots of places you can post that you may not be aware of. this could lead to you getting greater exposure for your work.

If you have not already done so I recommend LJ becuase this is where writers post as their first port of call and just back up on ffnet.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

That I would definitely not do. I don't post as myself here, and I wouldn't want people to get confused. And troll reviews are even worse here. I really hope you'll consider copying your post and sending it to them, though.

[lielac]

The more you tighten your guidelines, the more you restrict our imaginations and abilities.

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." When the Imperial March starts playing in one's head when one thinks of a site's administrators, it's probably time to bail. Tell anyone you think would care that you're leaving, where your stories will be posted, and why you're jumping ship, and leave ff.net to sink.

I think the admins might be punching holes in the hull deliberately, though that might just be my cynical side talking...

[lolaann1.livejournal.com]

I think the admins might be punching holes in the hull deliberately, though that might just be my cynical side talking...

Just curious as to your theory on why that would be so. I love conspiracies.

[lielac]

I think it's mostly because I think this giant dick move is too ridiculously extensive and widespread to be accidental dickery. They've got to know what they're doing, and yet they clearly don't give a shit if they make everyone hate them. FF.net's been going down slowly anyway, and I think they've finally noticed. Therefore, I (only half-seriously) think they're pissing off all their users to get this trainwreck over with and kill the site already.

Could be what's really going on, could be me rather having malice to fight against than stupidity to be baffled by.

[squibstress.livejournal.com]

Parachuting in to say that I suspect the recent purge may be a result of complaints by one or more of the copyright holders whose original work is the basis for fic on the site, or the fear of such complaints. Remember J.K. Rowling's C & D against restrictedsection.org? Everyone loses when the lawyers get busy. Just a guess, of course, but a better one than "they just want to piss us off," I think.

I have no objection to FFN removing stories they feel violate their TOS--no matter how arbitrary or vague the TOS may seem. It's their site, they can do as they please. I don't like the way they do it (the e-mail from the mod is a masterpiece of bad public relations). But at the moment, they are the 300-lb. gorilla of fanfiction, so they feel they can treat their users as they wish. Until they are no longer the gorilla, that's exactly what they'll do.

That's why I urge anyone who doesn't like FFN to at least cross-post to a friendlier archive like A03. At the moment, AO3 and other archives can't compete with FFN--I get a fraction of the traffic there compared with FFN. The only way that will change is if enough people begin to use it. It won't happen overnight, but it won't happen at all unless we make it happen, and if we don't, we're stuck with choosing between the rotten treatment that FFN offers and the lack of traffic elsewhere.

That's my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

Like I said to the other person, I really don't see this as a copyright issue or whatever. I mean, if that were it, then all the fics for a certain fandom would be taken down. But it's a bunch of different ones. And the site has not said anything about it. It's them abusing their power and being unfair.

[paksenarrion2.livejournal.com]

Actually this recent purge is thanks to a group of assclarinets on ff.net that have organized a let's decide what is proper fanfic and worthy of being posted and are doing a mass filing of complaints to the abuse team. (See my comment in the first post on this subject for the details)

They are targeting a number of fandoms-Twilight and the Hunger Games are two that I am aware of. Also be aware if you go and comment in their forum, they will target you. They are the worst kind of trolls.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I haven't had any problems....yet. I think taking stuff down - especially if its a matter of the title not being G rated - without giving users a chance to fix sucks - but probably that would be way too complicated to handle.

What they should have done, IMHO, is sent out an email to all users letting them know this was going to happen and give them 30 days to correct BEFORE they purged. (And when I run the world, that's the way it'll be, LOL). I was aware of this rule which is why my titles are always family friendly, at least to a screening program.

I have mixed feelings on M vs MA ratings. I don't think they are clear, but the fact that other stories are still up doesn't mean they won't be taken down eventually. We'll see.

And I do think this is due either to publishers' complaints or fear of upcoming legislation. I wouldn't take it personally - they just don't want to get shut down like some file-sharing sites.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

That's not really believable. This is not a file-sharing site. And if someone doesn't want stories related to their work written, then the site respects that. And since this is happening in various fandoms, it's highly unlikely that's the case, especially since only certain stories are being targeted.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Good point. I think there was something about shutting down porn sites in some of the new legislation - maybe they are afraid of getting targeted by the 'think of the children' brigade. IDK.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

I really don't think that's it either. And racy doesn't automatically equal that.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I do. They have better things to do than be intentional dickheads. They probably asked their counsel who told them, 'well if you want to be absolutely, positively sure you don't get shut down for porn, do x,y, and z.' We saw some of this after Mega- up/download got shut down. Other file sharing sites went a bit over the edge taking down stuff.

When companies start to do stupid things, there generally is a stupid (but well paid) attorney involved.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

But again, this is not a file-sharing site, and we likely would have been told if there were legal reasons. There's nothing to indicate what you're suggesting.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I guess you missed the last time they deleted adult stuff some years ago. Whatever.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

Not sure what your point is...

[serenitytouched.livejournal.com]

I'm amazed you received a reply.

It's still up in the air to me about a "tastefully" written love scene. I feel like mine are tasteful, but others might find it explicit. It depends what you're comparing it to, I guess. Compared to some of the things I've read on AFF, I don't think it's as strong as that, but I just don't know because of how much sexual content I've included - and it's not just smut for smut sake. Sex to me is just as meaningful as the plot of the relationship between two people.

All I can do is just shrug if I find my fic pulled off. I know there was always the possibility of that happening. Yeah, it sucks having something tossed out after taking a year or so of writing in progress with a built up readership. Sure, it would be nice if they allowed you to "edit" it to fit their standards, but there's just so many fics. Unless they have the staff for it, no one's going to take the time to review it. They don't owe it to us to do that. It would simply be a nice gesture and nothing more.

I've always liked the ease of using FF and it has a large history and great archive of fics. AO3 is very promising in becoming something just as big, it just needs some tweaking.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

My story doesn't even have the actual act, and I think it's more than tasteful.

There's so many fics because of how they handled things and how poor their guidelines are. They very much do owe us.

[serenitytouched.livejournal.com]

That in itself makes it even more such a blurry line of what the heck is considered M then, if you didn't even have that.

I didn't catch too much what your fic was that was removed. Was it just labeled as a T and they considered it an M? Or, was it already an M?

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

I had it rated T, but they apparently think it shouldn't even be M. I offered to change the rating, but they claim it's MA. I don't think so.

[serenitytouched.livejournal.com]

This makes no sense. lol T_T What the heck is MA about it if you didn't write the actual act of sex?

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

Not sure.O_o

[alex-axle.livejournal.com]

You know what I realized? With their definition that no explicit violence is allowed, they would probably delete The Hunger Games if it were a fic on their site, even though THG is a hit with teenagers right now.

I suppose I could get behind some censorship for younger eyes, though I think it's ageist to do so. One example is the rule that all titles and summaries must be G rated. That's okay, I suppose. But they're going too far. With all the things on TV and in movies and on the internet, NOTHING on FF will "warp their fragile little minds."

I get that it is their site and they can make rules as they wish. But these rules are being very inconsistently applied, and they are using very arbitrary definitions. And they're also being unfair in deleting entire accounts, which I feel should only be done for extremely flagrant violations. That too is being done inconsistently.

It isn't fair and it's extremely unprofessional. For a site that wants to encourage people to "unleash their imaginations", they are doing everything possible to stop people from doing so.

[kagenoneko-maat.livejournal.com]

I would have to very much agree with you.

[daxodokira.livejournal.com]

Not just the Hunger Games, I think Rowling's HP would get booted with their ridiculous rules, too. Think about it: genocide, descriptive torture, killings ... oh my ... FFnet would definitely not find that suitable for children or even M-rated.

And really, M is for above 16. Sixteen is the age of consent in my country (and many other European countries, too), so here they can actually do what they're not allowed to read about according to FFnet. *rolls eyes*

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

I brought up The Hunger Games in my next reply, after he just gave me an excerpt from my story and asks if that was not MA. i see MA as being really dark or over-the-top stuff, not a tiny bit of touching that using no vulgar wording and keeps things as vague as possible.

[daxodokira.livejournal.com]

Seriously? A bit of touching with vague word usage is MA according to that person? *snnnrks*

In what century and what society?

Have they ever seen music videos or ads? It's all sexual content. In big billboards on the streets for babies to see.

Hypocrisy.

[kagenoneko-maat.livejournal.com]

I hope you are able to get your fanfic reinstated, but if you are able to post it somewhere else, I might want to read it just to see what they had a big fuss about.

[jessioriginal.livejournal.com]

I'm hesitant to post it on Archive, largely because I posted that other story, and it got no comments, even with me also messaging it here. That's really disheartening, because reviews are very important to me.

[evila-elf.livejournal.com]

Is Dick considered a bad word for summaries? I'm wondering about the SPN fandom because of the baddie this last season.

[kagenoneko-maat.livejournal.com]

I know Dick gets censored if you have the profanity filter turned on for PMs even if it was a character name.